Making Peace: Then & Now | Kofi Time with Christiane Amanpour | Episode 2

Introduction

AHMAD FAWZI__ This is Kofi Time. This debate of justice and peace, we sometimes become so acrimonious is supposed to be it in the sense that you need both. Justice reinforces peace and the long-term peace that one is looking for. 20 years ago, Kofi Annan was awarded together with the United Nations, The Nobel Peace Prize, regarded as one of the modern world’s icons of diplomacy.

AHMAD FAWZI__ What’s his legacy today? How can we prepare for tomorrow? Based on his vision for a better world. Hello, I’m Ahmed Fawzi and I had the pleasure and privilege of working with Kofi Annan, accompanying him on many missions around the world as one of his spokespersons and communication adviser.

Today, we will discuss a world in turmoil where the multilateral system of collective security put in place after World War Two seems ever more fragile and unable to contain violence and aggression. What would Kofi Annan, who did so much for peace, do today? To answer this question and many more, I am so pleased to welcome Christiane Amanpour to this podcast today.

Christiane Amanpour, of course, is the renowned award-winning journalist whose illustrious career has taken her from CNN, where she was chief international correspondent for many years to ABC as a global affairs anchor, PBS and back to CNN International for the global affairs interview program named after her: AMANPOUR. She has received countless prestigious awards, including four Peabody Awards, for her international reporting and her achievements in broadcast journalism.

She served as a member of the board of directors of the Committee to Protect Journalists and the UNESCO Goodwill Ambassador for Freedom of Expression and Journalists Safety. Christiane, hello. You are most welcome to this podcast. 

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR_ Ahmad It’s just wonderful to be to be with you and to be able to talk about Kofi Annan, who is just such a tremendous historical figure.

Preventing War

AHMAD FAWZI__ Indeed. I remember you said that Kofi Annan was the looming figure towering over your years as an international correspondent for CNN. When was the first time you met him, if I may ask, and what were your first impressions of the man? 

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR_ I was a junior correspondent when he was head of peacekeeping, and then I was slightly more senior when he became secretary general. I didn’t have the opportunity to meet him a lot, because I was in the field mostly. However, I did have the occasion to meet him several times. And what I think of the most important time, which you’ll remember and I remember because of being there, was in 1998 when he came to Baghdad amidst one of those perpetual potential wars that were going to happen because of Saddam Hussein constantly flouting the U.N. resolutions and all the pledges he had made after the first Gulf War.

So I do remember it very, very clearly one of these occasions, February 1998. And he was there to just try to head this off. He had signed a memorandum of understanding. It ended the threat at that moment, but then Saddam violated it and the tension ratcheted up and kept ratcheting up, obviously, until the 2003 war. And I would just say that I think he was one of the if it’s not the only world leader because that’s what he was as secretary general of the United Nations, to condemn the idea of that war as both wrong and illegal.

And then it was incredibly courageous, I think. 

AHMAD FAWZI__ Indeed. And today I am interviewing you, which is rather intimidating in itself, I must say, Christiane. But you are known, of course, for the many interviews you conducted with world leaders from the Middle East to Europe, Africa and beyond. In fact, you interviewed Kofi Annan over the years. How did he compare as an interviewee with others who spoke on your show? Did he stand out in any way?

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR_ Well, I think he did, because, first of all, he had an amazing innate humanity about him. He had an amazing, innate dignity about him. And obviously, as everybody can see, he had great charisma. He was the first African, the first black head of the United Nations. It was a big deal. He never really played on it, but it was a huge, big deal for what he represented.

He was the first U.N. secretary-general to come up through the rights of the U.N., having spent his career at the U.N., so knew it very, very well. I went through the good, the bad and the ugly in the Kofi Annan years. Kofi Annan was head of peacekeeping when some of the worst violations of international and U.N. law took place in the world, whether it was the siege, the shelling, the ethnic cleansing and the genocide in Bosnia, whether it was the genocide in Rwanda, or whether it was the catastrophe eventually in Somalia and on and on.

And so I actually think in retrospect, that he would also agree that there were very severe U.N. failures during those years. The nineties were the years that the U.N. was really shaken to its foundation. Its relevance was questioned, and its ability to actually be a peacekeeping and peace convening body was really questioned. And again, I was incredibly impressed.

After the failures of, for instance, Bosnia and Rwanda, particularly Rwanda, where the U.N. only stepped up with a small peacekeeping force that didn’t match the threat of the genocidal Rwandans, the Hutus. Afterwards, he went to Rwanda and he apologized on behalf of the U.N., on behalf of himself, on behalf of the international community. President Clinton did as well.

So, as much as maybe Kofi Annan would have wanted to do the right thing in those times, his hands were bound by the five permanent members of the U.N. Security Council. 

Peacekeeping operations

AHMAD FAWZI__ Yeah. And indeed, I mean, you mentioned Bosnia, Rwanda, and Somalia. Many of these failures were failures of member states rather than the U.S. administration itself. But as an international correspondent, you covered many conflicts and you reported on major crises from Iraq and Iran to Israel and Palestine, Rwanda and Somalia to Afghanistan and Pakistan throughout the nineties and 2000s.

First, as head of United Nations peacekeeping operations, as you said, and later as secretary general, and then as head of his own foundation. Kofi Annan worked for peace very hard in many of the same hotspots where you served, which you covered. Where did you feel his role was the most decisive? 

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR_ Well, look, I really did see that in him. And most particularly, I really was impressed, like many people around the world when he became secretary general and he was in charge and he used that podium and his microphone, whether it was in interviews with people like myself or in public speeches and declarations. He used that microphone as many have said, to channel humanity in the worst possible situations, in the work of peace and in the work of trying to focus the world on what was at stake, whether it was Iraq, whether it was 9-11, you had you had Afghanistan. 

He was much involved in attempting to get some kind of workable, at least supporting some kind of workable deal between Iran and the rest of the world over the nuclear program. He took the elders after he was secretary general to Iran, to Tehran. He spoke with the high-level authorities there. He got in and he told me this.

He talked about how he got from them, a sense of how important they took it and how sincere he believed they were, the Iranians, in trying to make a deal to lower international tensions. He failed, Israel for instance, and most particularly Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu was deliberately, and these were his words to me trying to sabotage the Iran nuclear deal, which Kofi felt and the United States administration felt and many others in the Security Council were believe that this was an agreement that could: 

a. Work in the pursuit of peace 

b. Lower very, very severe international tensions.

c. Make sure there was no nuclear weapon in Iran and 

d. Contributing to the avoidance of another war in the Middle East, which he could see from his time as secretary-general, what happened in Iraq, for instance, was just a terrible, terrible thing. 

And he had the courage to tell me that on camera. It was not popular. And Benjamin Netanyahu, when he talked to me, Kofi had just gone to this to the U.S. Congress and literally attacked the sitting administration of the United States in front of a body of the elected Senate and Congress.

Kofi thought that was just not on. Not just in terms of the dignity of international discourse. But he believed the Israeli government was just plain wrong. 

Conflict resolution

AHMAD FAWZI__ Having said all that, you’re quite right that he brought his humanity to the work of peacekeeping. Would you say, there was a certain touch or method that he brought to mediation and conflict resolution? A Kofi Annan way? 

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR_  Yes. I mean, of course, I wasn’t in the negotiations. So all I know is that he was very, again, dignified, quiet. He didn’t shout at people. He didn’t get his fists and hammers on the table. He was able to convince many world leaders that the best course of business was to try to pursue the peaceful option.

And I think he was able to convince them that he could see their side as well. In other words, convince all sides that he could see their side, that is the mark of a very skilled negotiator because you give respect and time to all sides. It doesn’t mean to say that you treat all sides equally or that you allow the aggressor to equate itself with the victim, but you listen to their point of view and then come at it. The solution from that perspective. And I think that’s a skill that many leaders don’t have because often negotiators can come in and think that they can read the right act or they can fling around their egos the zero-sum game. And I think Kofi Annan was very different.

Peace and Justice

AHMAD FAWZI__ Yes. Yes, indeed. He had a way of speaking his truth quietly and clearly and focusing on the big picture. Christiane, Kofi Annan once said that, and I quote: “We must be ambitious enough to pursue both justice and peace. And wise enough to know when and how to do so. And this debate can sometimes be acrimonious.” What comes first? Peace or justice? Let’s listen to the man himself in his inimitable voice, talking about peace and justice.

KOFI ANNAN__ This debate of justice and peace, we sometimes become so acrimonious is supposed to be it in this and you need both. Justice reinforces peace and the long-term peace that one is looking for. 

AHMAD FAWZI__ Do you feel that this tension between peace and justice, between the need to bring an end to the violence and the call to hold accountable the perpetrators of crimes against humanity was always present? And did you feel that Kofi Annan ever sacrificed one for the other?

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR_ Well, I think Kofi Annan is clear in his own words there. And he’s absolutely right. In my experience from the other side really being the reporter, being the eyewitness, not just to the war, which is the opposite of peace, but also to the injustice and the crimes, which is the opposite of justice. And then afterwards, sometimes being able to watch accountability. And I do believe that you cannot have peace without justice or justice without peace. Frankly, what is the Black Lives Matter slogan? No justice, no peace. That is a very, very important international concept that Kofi embodied and spoke about a lot and that I have encountered in my own reporting.

So whether it’s justice and accountability, prosecution and conviction and sentencing for the terrible crimes against humanity and the genocides that I witnessed in both Bosnia and Rwanda, or whether and it hasn’t yet happened in Syria, and it must do. And what happens now in Ukraine? We’re speaking, as I’ve just returned from an assignment in Ukraine where an unprovoked war by Russia, a member of the United Nations Security Council, is rocking the world in a way that we haven’t seen, I say since Bosnia in Europe. Many people say since the Second World War, the number of deaths, the pattern of the attacks, and the corrupt, bankrupt and inhumane ideology of the Russians completely deny the legitimacy of the Ukrainians. All of this is a deep, deep crisis that will then require real serious prosecutions, convictions, and punishment to establish justice after.

And so I also then say, where is the U.N. today? Well, the U.N. cannot impose. Kofi showed that the U.N. can use the podium, use the quote-unquote, bully pulpit, convene, can bring the sides together. And that, I think, was the unique moral and administrative purpose of the United Nations, and particularly the Security Council. Of course, in this case, it’s very difficult because the aggressor is also a member of the Security Council.

Communications and Media

AHMAD FAWZI__ Let’s talk about the media. When I first joined the U.N. in 1992 from a career in journalism, it struck me that all U.N. staff were terrified of talking to the press. Then, as head of news and media for the U.N. during Kofi Annan’s mandate between 1997 and 2006, I witnessed how much he changed the way that the U.N. communicated and interacted with the media.

His chief spokesman, Fred Eckert, played a role in this and drafted new guidelines for the staff. And suddenly everyone was speaking to journalists as long as they stayed within the competencies. How did you feel about that? How was it perceived by your colleagues in the press? 

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR_ It’s great. I call it a great guy. You, the others who were around Kofi Annan, because that’s who we’re talking about in this case, really did open some doors for us. And it was fabulous. And if you remember, CNN was pretty much the main television big player in terms of press and coverage of the U.N. We had our fabulous Richard Roth, who is still there with a permanent bureau devoted to telling the story of the U.N. and talking to U.N. officials from the Secretary-General on down. And I feel of course, I would say this wouldn’t I, that the more you guys talk, the better, because it does actually help your case, helps our case, and it helps the case of elucidating every issue to the world for greater understanding.

If you look at what’s happening, for instance, today in 2022, in the era of a massive global media empire, much, much stronger over other platforms than when we’re talking about social media, with every possible platform that the Russian regime refuses to engage. It’s very difficult. I was very fortunate to get an interview, which I gave 20 minutes on my global show to Dmitry Peskov. I hope to talk to him again. But not talking does not help your case. Look at what Ukraine is doing. Look at the president of Ukraine. Every single night delivers his own social media address, as well as talking to parliaments all over the world, talking to whoever it is. And that’s why his case is much better understood around the world.

AHMAD FAWZI__ Yes, he’s doing an amazing job, I think, in communicating. Communication one-on-one. And world leaders would be good to take his example. Christiane, the media and public opinion, however, can be fickle. There was much praise for Kofi Annan during his first term for the way that he opened up the U.N. and when he received the Nobel Peace Prize with the U.N. But some of your American colleagues turned viciously on him when he said in an interview with the BBC, as you mentioned earlier, that the U.S. invasion of Iraq was illegal. He was attacked in a very personal manner and his family was not spared. What do you think happened there? 

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR_ Well, I know what happened because it happened to all of us. Any of us in the mainstream, whether you’re a world leader, U.N. secretary-general or a CNN correspondent. If you questioned that war, the full weight of the right-wing media in the United States, i.e. Fox and all of that ecosystem, as well as the U.S. administration because they were defending their mission, all would come down on anyone who disagreed. And if you remember, very early in this post, 9-11 world, President Bush said essentially, you’re either with us or you’re with the terrorists. So Kofi Annan was just one of the highest profiles, people took a full file of this, what I would call lockstep, foot soldiers.

I called foxes. Of the ten foot soldiers of the Bush administration attacked for that as well. But here’s the thing. Whether you’re head of the United Nations, or whether you are a journalist belonging to a democratic country where the constitutional freedom and independence of journalism are guaranteed, it is your duty to speak the truth. It is your duty to speak truth to power no matter who you are and let the chips fall where they may.

 I’m sorry that Kofi bore the brunt of that. But he stood firm and that was the most important thing. He was a man who, I guess, appreciated is not always enjoyed the cut and thrust of what it really means to be a public figure. And to defend the defensible, to apologize and acknowledge the indefensible, and to always speak truth to power and to always be the voice of humanity. And I believe that was what Kofi was.

I did get the opportunity as well, after he had stepped down, to enjoy the company of Kofi Annan. Annan, his wife, wonderful woman. And I still treasure a wedding gift they gave to us when we got married in 1998. And I still have it. It was a beautiful vase, which I still use. And every single time I look at it, I remember Kofi and I remember Annan. I remember their humanity and their friendship. And I’m glad I got that in the divorce settlement. 

AHMAD FAWZI__ Well, we won’t talk about that at the moment. Maybe off air, I’d like to hear about it. But I have one last question and thank you for giving us so much of your time. Despite those vicious attacks, I can attest that he was under a lot of stress. In fact, he nearly lost that voice of his. Yet he got up every day determined to stop conflicts where he could. Determined to expose member states when we could not. He was not afraid, as you said, to speak truth to power as happened in Syria. And I was with him there in Syria. This is how he put it. Let’s listen to him in his own words. 

KOFI ANNAN__You cannot see the conditions on the ground and not feel it intensely and that’s what one of my predecessors said, our objective is not to take people to heaven, but to prevent humanity from going to head. And this is a tough job something you do every day. You have to wake up every day ready to start again. 

AHMAD FAWZI__ Is that something, That’s my question to you. Do you think mediators and peacemakers must have a kind of calling? Have you observed that? 

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR_ Absolutely. It’s a calling, but it’s also, as he said, the ability to get up even when your head has been bloodied. That happens so much to somebody like Kofi Annan. You can, you could try to help direct people either to heaven or away from hell. But it’s not easy. But is the enthusiasm and the commitment to keep trying, even when the solution is not 100% guaranteed. And I do think that that is what makes people like Kofi Annan stand out. We were very lucky to have him on the world stage for all those years.

As I say today, when yet another of these terrible wars and who could have imagined, a land war in Europe in 2022.  I feel very, very strongly that we miss his convening power if it’s not the U.N. that was dedicated to peace. What form is it? What is the arena? And I’d like to end by saying my boss, Ted Turner, believes so deeply in the United Nations that he, as the first of the modern great philanthropists, gave $1,000,000,000 way to support the United Nations.

This has a huge impact on people like myself. Therefore, goodbye ugly. There are always problems with every institution. In the end, the U.N. must stand for something. And I believe when Kofi was Secretary-General it did. 

AHMAD FAWZI__ Christiane Amanpour, thank you so much for sharing your thoughts and stories with us and helping us focus the spotlight on how Kofi Annan acted to reduce tensions, end conflicts, and what his legacy means for those who try to do the same today. Thank you so much.

You’ve been listening to Kofi Time. Wherever you are, please share the values that Kofi Annan represented that you think are relevant today using the hashtag Kofi time. Kofi Annan is brought to you by the Kofi Annan Foundation and the United Nations Information Service in Geneva, produced by Gianluca Ilaria. Please join me again for the next episode of Kofi Time.